What Else Do We Not Know? with Clare Mann




Clare Mann is an Australian-based vegan psychologist, communications trainer, and animal rights, campaigner. She consults with people all over the world to help address the personal and social challenges of being vegan and living in a non-vegan world and is the author of "Vystopia: The Anguish of Being Vegan in a Non-Vegan World."

She has been influential in my own journey in activism and veganism. Clare beautifully reminds us all to live a live of conscious acts while also being able to ponder the big questions of life.


Please note, this episode has been transcribed by a computer, expect some typos!


Carly Puch

Welcome back to another episode of Consciously Clueless. I'm your host, Carly, and I'll be your guide on this journey from consciousness to cluelessness and back around again. Today's guest is Claire man. She is an Australian-based vegan psychologist, communications trainer, and animal rights, campaigner. She consults with people all over the world to help address the personal and social challenges of being vegan and living in a non-vegan world and is the author of multiple books including Vystopia, the anguish of being vegan in a non-vegan world. Claire has been instrumental in my own journey to activism and veganism, and I'm so excited for you to hear this episode. Thank you for joining me today.

Clare Mann

Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. I'm calling in from Sydney, Australia.

Carly Puch

Yes, I love that we made this work. It took me Some triple checking on time zones that I was like, Okay, I did schedule this right, right, this isn't 2am or anything.

Clare Mann

Yeah, that's really I these days, I have a sort of typical calendar that does that for people in the time zones, because I think all of us work in so many times stones. And as this movement is growing, and understandably, we sometimes get it wrong.

Carly Puch

Yes, that's very helpful. So the question I really like to start with for people is just, the podcast is called consciously clueless. And I wanted to create that to create the space to explore all the moments in between, where we're feeling really conscious and with it and like we understand and then those moments where we feel Oh, I don't know anything. I'm pretty clueless at this thing called life and everything in between. So I'm just curious to know where and this moment right now today, you're feeling kind of on that spectrum of really conscious or a little more clueless.

Clare Mann

Yeah, what a great question. clueless I love it. You know, I think all of us have to stay the state of curiosity and unknowing. And I think we're struggling with that at the moment. Where am I at the moment. And when I'm pretty self-directed at the moment in channeling what I'm actually seeing happening in the movement, particularly around the polarization, with the bigger issues that are happening in our world at the moment, whether that's about health or viruses or whether it's about freedom of speech, and people losing the ability to think for themselves censorship. And so I found a way out to do that, which is to which I can talk about later on the show is to find a, a weekly outlet for that, to have those conversations with people to try and take away dispel some of the myths that is happening at the moment because if people feel utterly clueless and overwhelmed, just be alone. And I think at this time in our history, we have to really getting a lesson in what it is to live with an existential crisis. Which is uncertainty, unknowing things are not going to go back to how they would be. But for vegans, we don't necessarily want them to do we now?

Carly Puch

That's such an interesting way to put it because the person that I just had on the podcast this week, the episode that was released this week, at least, talked about this idea of if you're trying to go back to something that was there's nothing there anymore. We're at this moment that where there's nothing to go back to, you know, it feels like there's this global awakening and the only way is forward.

Clare Mann

Yeah, I agree with you. And I think they never wasn't the place to go back to. I think that's it. We do certain things in life, we get to this nice little cozy corner, we go to a festival we've been going to for several years, we connect with our tribe, and we think it's gonna go on forever, and we want it to go on forever. And always something will happen, you know, and I think that's part of the existential human condition, but to live in no longer and not yet, as I say,

Carly Puch

Oh, that's really lovely. Can you explain that a little more.

Clare Mann

Yeah, well, in order to explain it really, I'm using the term existential all the time. But I think we need to really get a grasp of what that is because it's used sort of generally in social media and talks, but people really don't know what it is right. And I trained to be an existential psychotherapist and what I retrained at one stage over four years, because the philosophy of existentialism made a huge amount of sense to me. Now, it really is the philosophy of what it is to be to what it is to exist in the world. And to just give a little snapshot of the living with uncertainty, imperative of that is what I call the acorn to oak. And for instance, if often we have a plan of what we're going to do in the world, so say for instance, you want to create a public Cast. As you have his side in your mind, you're sitting over coffee with a friend and you get this great ideal. All ideas and great ventures begin in our minds and hearts. And then you put it down on paper and then you discuss it, it starts to take shape, and then you do all the steps to actually make the podcast be born into the world. So if that's what we call acorn to oak, in other words, its essence preceded its existence, it came into the essence and what it was is a vision and strategy for what you wanted, was in your head beforehand. an existential view is the other way round. It says are we come into existence and we come to know our essence, through relationship, relationship with ourselves, our culture, our gender, our parents, our financial situation, our time in history, etc, etc. However, when we try to make things solid, so we have things called families and rears with friendships gender, but these are actually all to some extent, social constructs because they're shaped within our social and cultural Malou. And we spend the rest of our lives trying to, we get the sedimented beliefs of this is how life is. And then suddenly life throws a curveball. We, we lose our job, our parents die, we get sick, we become vegan. Or it's we thought it was going to go a certain way or we get divorced. And we thought it was this was how life was and we've thrown into realizing the huge uncertainty. Globally, we're living with that at the moment. So we are and we have to embrace the existence to essence and instead of trying to go back, how can we learn from this what is the what are the most important lessons for us to to create something very different because it wasn't working for a lot of people.

Carly Puch

That is so beautiful to have to exist to find our essence. It feels like that almost is a little more hopeful.

Clare Mann

Absolutely, rather than saying this is the normal way to be, this is what life's about. And there's no shortage of people telling us what it's about, from religious to philosophical to mystic views. But that's just a collection of people at some point made some decision. We have those moments of anxiety when even if we have a belief system, we start choosing it. And we have those doubts, and we go, Well, what if that wasn't the case? And then we struggled to try and make it all certain again, what we thought the vegan community was, how would we all been shocked how some behaved vegans have behaved incredibly badly, and six months and detect people and polarize and call them conspiracy theorists and others are saying you're not taking it seriously or all sorts of things. So we're human beings and we're, you know, veganism is a symptom or an animal abuse I believe is an outcome of a wider way of looking at the world of, of superiority really, and and oppression.

Carly Puch

Oh, wow. I think that that is a really good way to position that and takes it out of I think, and collecting my thoughts because I'm so overwhelmed with how what you're saying feels so true to me. I think that a lot of times, there's this defensiveness that comes up, when we talk about veganism and people or I mean, really any social justice movement, where you learn that something you thought to always be true is not true. And that's really unsettling. And that's really in grounding. And then you kind of have this moment, which I did too, of like, I can't trust anything. Everything I knew was a lie. What and and that moment, I think is when I connected with you first. So what feels like so long ago, because it feels like you don't know what to do when you can't trust the systems you thought were true. Especially when you've been Living in privilege to benefit from those systems. So I think to call animal abuse, just a symptom of like this larger thing in the world takes that individual guilt a little bit that people automatically feel and say, Well, this is just like an issue that is, it's bigger than us.

Clare Mann

Yes. I think you're absolutely right. And I think it's, and I think a lot of vegans believe when I say this through, you know, my interaction with people is, if we could just clean up the meat and livestock industry and the animal testing that would, you know, people would start to see things differently. And I say to people, it's actually we shouldn't be afraid of the meat and livestock industry at all actually, they're very small relative to the pharmaceutical industry and how that leads every aspect of people's lives in animal agriculture. So animal use, I think in Australia alone, 80% of pharmaceuticals, go into the production of meat, eggs, fish and chicken. That's before you do testing cosmetic Everything else. And that's a really, and that, you know, what we're seeing now is the move towards a denial of choices, what we put into our own bodies for health care or prevention of disease. We're experiencing exactly the experience that animals have been subjected to. And then we've got to ask what bigger political issues are involved here? And because it's a sort of crack starting to show and what's happening at the moment, and, you know, nobody's talking about how we make our immune systems more robust. No one's talking about the miniscule numbers relative to the reaction to what's and the huge Fallout and cost of what's happening with the viral situation. And I encourage vegans to say, Well, remember the time when you became vegan, you couldn't believe you didn't know that you were so blinded. And I think we've got to be thrown even more into anxiety to go Well, guess what, I think the issue is even bigger now. It's because it's it. At all levels were being forced to look at, you know, anyone who looks at the mainstream media and accepts it wholesale is or even doesn't think there's another way. And is is mind blowing to me because it's owned by six major corporations that actually have an agenda and they're a business. And so why would we expect them to be suddenly concerned about our health and well being. And so I encourage vegans to say you've got to keep taking the red tablets here guys, because you're okay with animal cruelty. Now, you've got to realize that that was an aspect of this, and oppression and superiority by bicycle certain groups, I would say much harder than our governments.

Carly Puch

When I think an interesting theme that was unexpected, as I continue to talk to people who have become vegan, is veganism for a lot of people seems to serve as the insert point into finding out about all these systems and it definitely was for me because for me veganism started with health. And then it was kind of all the environment. And then it was the animal piece that I was really knew was there, but I was avoiding it didn't want to think about it. And then I thought that was kind of it. Those are the three pillars. But then it was what about all of the workers in those places and the human rights issue and it just there's so many other things. And that's where it's overwhelming, but it's also good to start to realize all those things overlap, and they are all a part of it. And there's a domino effect. There's no single issue.

Clare Mann

Absolutely. And you know, it's to do with consciousness really, you know, how do we raise our consciousness to realize that everything we do our thoughts, feelings, actions have an effect. And if we look at online of social media and things like that, of how easily vegans are behaving badly towards people, they've stood in the front aligns with and I like to think it comes from fear but I'm not sure it is and the more I think about it, it's coming from you know, this deep set oppression that and and conformity to obedience almost and we can't quite believe the chaos the world's been thrown into credit some level be a darkened dystopian reality. And I'm not saying I've got the answers but given what we've suddenly found out about right on our dinner plates every day, we saw it it was hidden in plain sight. I believe there's a lot more hidden in plain sight and we got a chance I think to every day in those conversations with people is, you know, am I adding too am i doing a conscious act or am I doing a violent act? harsh words quick dismissal, shaming, you know, and virtue signaling for our own sort of sake. Are we doing that that's a that could be seen to be a violent act if it is to shame or embarrass someone else because someone hasn't quite should have asked a big enough question or I'll tell you haven't seen something we've asked ourselves. And I think when we start to clean up our own act, it has a domino effect. But we can't do great things in the world if we haven't got our own house in order, and we're thinking, violent thoughts or prejudicial superiority, we do it over our friends and over non vegans, but we're not doing it to be vegans. Because they may be saying, oh, you're why you're causing all these problems. This is, you know, that's sort of this health situation we've got globally, and then we'll get back to doing animal advocacy. Well, I think it's all related.

Carly Puch

Yeah, and I think that something I really have appreciated about following you and downloading the app that you have and going through some of those videos and resources. You have been really instrumental in my growth as a vegan and just to think as a human. So I thank you for that.

Clare Mann

Oh, thank you. Like if I'm humbled, and I'm just you know, you've got a big smile on my face. Because I think we all want to make a contribution to the world and, and sometimes where we get out, we don't know where it comes back. And look, you know, maybe there was something I said or did and helped you and look at the effect you're now having in the world and then someone listening here will go and do that this giant relay race around the world. Yes.

Carly Puch

Oh, I love that, a relay race.

Clare Mann

Yeah, right. We just got to keep passing the buck.

Carly Puch

Yes, just keep going.

Clare Mann

And that's really

Carly Puch

I think that something I've really appreciated about connecting with you and following along and using your resources is how everything you just said, there always was this encouragement to meet people where they were at. And I definitely there's a there's kind of a joke that you'll find an angry vegan phase, but I definitely did. Like I just said it was that like, Oh, nothing is true. I don't know what to do. Why doesn't anybody hear me? Why doesn't anybody understand I get it now. And what your resources has helped me do is take a step back, and just focus more on communication, and how to relate to people and meeting people where they're at. Because it took me how many years to figure it out. I can't expect every human around me suddenly to listen and change because I said so. But I wanted them to.

Clare Mann

But, so what you actually see the cruelty, you can't believe people can't see it. And I think, let's think back to when we didn't see it. You know, I've come clean about this. And I've mentioned it on a few shows, and I think but I can remember living in London in the UK wearing for, I didn't have a fur coat, but I had a bit of fur trim. And I've, over the years, I've thought What am I doing? I didn't think for a moment that those animals had been deliberately, you know, NASA code for that to happen. So what I think that was a byproduct somebody went in the forest and got these things, and then we used it. But you know, there is that sort of willful ignorance in many ways. But I always say to people, if that was the case, you know, the keep the beat ability of that, you've got to keep saying, what else? Don't we know? Because you can't sometimes you just can't believe that you didn't know. And but I think meeting people where they're at is particularly the topics they bring up. So if someone's asking you about diet, you know, doing a lot launching with slaughterhouse practices, need to get them there. And I keep saying to people, is you've got to go back to the ethics. Because I mean, let's just take game changers, the fantastic documentary, for example. Isn't it wonderful? And then you have on these in the Joe Rogan show, there was someone lambaste in it, and then they brought the director or the producer on and I think he spent three hours or something, giving batting like for like with study after study well, if we're talking about and that's that's our particular area. of expertise, somebody is always going to come up with some study that does that. And it also is not what veganism is. It's a philosophical position where if we we say to people I always say to people that diet is the whole food plant based diet is the well kept secret Not only is it a possible diet, it is the most healthful diet when we do it properly. But that's a bonus. Yes, yes, keep going back to the ethics you know, you and I will be living on french fries for the rest of our lives if that's all we could have abused an animal and but if we keep coming back to the ethics, then all the other stuff they're all the arguments are there, we just have to we may not we can direct them to documentaries, and but if they talk about diet, meet them with a diet and then and you can say well, and explain that to them where they get their protein or whatever, or whether because it's getting too much protein is they'll actually say but you know, what I actually learnt was a bigger issue is this is not really to do about dying. Or environment or, you know, begging animals, bigger cages. It's a philosophical position and like unto other, you know, we can then move it into there. And then we can give them all the links to there's so many documentaries out there to explain the imperatives of veganism for a practical.

Carly Puch

Yes. So a term that you have coined dystopia. I read that book and felt like suddenly things made sense. Or there was there was a word to describe it. Could you talk a little bit about that term and and where that came from?

Clare Mann

Yeah absolutely. If, if I had heard, if I had a $1 for each person who said that I think I could fund PETA. And it's not because I came up with the concept. I came up with the word, but vegans, myself included, immediately get it. It's like that's exactly what it is this multifaceted. Different complex and yet so simple concept of the waking up one day of feeling like a stranger in a strange land and everything that does even walking to the shopping mall, you see somebody drinking coffee, they're no longer drinking coffee and having lunch with a friend. You see that the baby calf you see the abuse, you see the mother grieving. It just goes on and on. And I realized, you know, in my advocacy and having called myself a vegan psychologist, largely because people seeking out those services say, Well, how can you understand me if you're part of the problem here? It just such a personal level, what you eat every day, is I realized we needed a word and there was two reasons for that is to give weight to the gravity and the complexity of what our experiences then it wasn't just some sort of type of depression or anxiety or panic attacks or despair in the world. It had, you know, people were coming to me and not you know, I see people all the time, and I The non vegan they come to me we dig around for a long time trying to find out what is the source or the real reason they're depressed. When the vegan comes you they know why they're depressed. They know and they might have all of other life problems that they want to deal with fine, we'll dig around with that one. But they know because they realize this systematized cruelty towards animals, that is normalized. And everybody is merrily carrying on with their fancy dinners, and tucking into the flesh of the tortured souls. And the big thing goes, Oh, my God, I know when I'm depressed, don't try and put me on some sort of tablet. We don't want to step out empathy. And so I realized is I needed to give a word to help us to have a yardstick to say, this is what it is, and this is the elements of it, so that people wouldn't have to decide what it wasn't sort of thing. Yeah, but the other element, which was more concerning to me was the medical authorities starting to pathologize the vegans plight, and saying that vegans either had eating disorders because they would meet the normal food. Some vegans might have Eating Disorders, but it's not because they're eating not eating animals. And they also said they had social adjustment issues because they couldn't fit in with the norms of society. God help us. You know, that's normal. I mean, goodness me, you know what, that's where how's that working for us.

Carly Puch

Yeah.

Clare Mann

And then the third one was the most troubling to me was that vegans and I'm talking ethical vegans here most people don't get severely distressing till they got a fussy diet is the is ethical vegans not choosing this not be part of the problem. They were saying that they had self harming tendencies because they were deliberately watching slaughterhouse footage because they hated themselves and they were just beating themselves up. low self esteem. No, that really got my backup because I realized the power of those labels with also goes to pharmaceutical medication, it's for some treatments. And I thought no, this is and my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Michael Cohen. Who people known for what the health said and I've interviewed him a number of times, Claire, this is a normal and desirable experience. For normal living feeling human being we definitely don't want to be stamping this out. Yeah, so so opia in a nutshell is the anguish we feel it knowing about the systematized cruelty towards animals. And then when we tell people, instead of them going, Oh, my gosh, I must change immediately. This is so obvious. This almost translate collusion with a darkened dystopian reality of which people don't even know they're part of what you thought of. And then we go, Well, if I didn't know about that, what else? Don't I know? And then we're called a conspiracy theorist.

Carly Puch

Yeah, it is, and it's really and grounding. It's really unsettling to hit that point. And to be able to ask the question, what else do I not know? It's far easier to say, I don't want to know what I don't know.

Clare Mann

That's right. I just got my life together. I just want to you know, stopping being horrible to animals and Get on with my life and I want to, I want to feel normal again, whatever that means. But you know, it is a there's a cost of becoming vegan, the burden of knowing is huge. You know, we don't always have that naive lightness that might go with life at certain times, if we're lucky enough in our life to get that, where we go, I just had to go out for dinner with friends in going to the shopping mall and buying something new. It almost seems so trivial and frivolous. And we almost don't allow ourselves that unless we're doing something of, of importance in the world to stop the suffering. And there's not that we have to grieve that naivety but it's better to know than actually, I think, to, to not know, because what do we afford to entertain ourselves or to push things in the right direction?

Carly Puch

To entertain ourselves or push things in the right direction? That's a good question. Because those are two very different paths in life.

Clare Mann

Absolutely. And at the moment, you hear people going, Oh, I wish this viral thing will be over and done with and we can all get back to normal. Don't It was only working, even then in a limited way behind closed doors people's story of whether their lives are working or not. It's a very different one. I know that from years of working as a psychologist, it wasn't working for a lot of people. I think it's nine out of 10 people can't bear their jobs. Most people are struggling in a socio economic cauldron, doing three jobs trying to feed their children, most people, you know, feel physically unwell, they're eating a diet that's killing them. And most people feel disillusioned and they feel pain, you know, and we all feel pain, we need to feel that. And so going back to normal, what was that it was a very privileged position for many that might choose how to entertain is I don't want normality because I don't think that was working for a lot of people. And I want a vegan world as a moral baseline. So I definitely don't want normality.

Carly Puch

That's so interesting that this concept keeps coming up for me because I do a solo episode every week as well. Just a shorter episode. And this week's was literally titled Why I don't want it to go back to normal. Because I just...

Clare Mann

Fantastic.

Carly Puch

I'm so sick of that phrase being thrown around, I can't wait for things to get back to normal. And, you know, also the sociologist in me is like, oh, normal, what's normal? You know, what are what are we defining that as What was that for you? And I think that I just want that conversation to keep moving forward that there's nothing like we said in the beginning, there's nothing to go back to.

Clare Mann

And I think you're absolutely right. And I think the biggest thing I'm finding vegans are struggling with at the moment is at some level, they want it to go back to normal, you know, we were doing so we're, we're not advocating for animals now. Where are the cubes of truth where the festivals, where's the outreach, almost as if we want to go back because we've decided the creative strategy that is going to get the world to be vegan. And that's why and I'll share it with people if they'd like to come on to those webinars is I realized that they were moving to second stage. We're still here. And I'm doing a video series, a video webinar series with a dear colleague of mine on who is a very learned friend and dear wonderful, big eye opener, known as the vegan maker in Australia. But I don't tell you I'll share him in a moment with his details. But you know, we're running a webinar called second stage of dystopia. What else don't we know? And we're tapping into that dark and dystopian reality beyond the slaughterhouse beyond the testing that which I think we are seeing in our world at the moment. Because there's a narrative being shared throughout the world that we have this terrible pandemic, we have this terrible virus, we need a solution for it, and that anyone you know that we need to listen to the whole authorities, it blows me away that vegans unwittingly question on question Question health departments that the previous week before this happened, they said, well, they're lying to 99% of the population and telling us to eat a diet that's killing ourselves. So I'm not saying what they're doing is wrong or right. But I know that they're not the only voice we need to listen to. And I'm saying to people, is that at the moment, anyone who questions the narrative is being censored, and I'm talking thousands of medical professionals who are saying, we need to look at this differently. This, our reaction is out of proportion to the threat. And so I'm encouraging vegans to stand, take more red pills and go, when Actually the problem is bigger than we thought. And at the moment, we're losing our freedom of speech. It's and, and our freedom of movement and our freedom of we have lockdowns in Australia at the moment that are purely totalitarian, and I don't say that lightly. It's tyranny. People cannot leave their houses. They are loaded an hour a day. A young girl of 28 was put into prison this week for six months for going across the border without permission, and because she should have gone into quarantine, there are no laws that say this. This is pure tyranny. We, these are mandates, but the public are believing this. You're not allowed to children can be taken out of people's homes. And there's so much censoring going on that we are losing our freedom of speech, but also people questioning the reality that a virus has not even been pinpointed and separated. And the test even by the person, the PCR test most commonly used to give us those numbers to result in governments acting in lockdowns in house arrest and prison imprisonment is the PCR test the original founder back in the 80s, who founded that we've got the Nobel Prize said it should never be used for diagnostic purposes. And even on a PCR test, the person administering it if they look at the piece of paper, it says you can use this for diagnosis gnosis test, largely because it's measuring DNA and RNA that many professionals feel is She created by the body to ward off illness. So wow with such a sick people don't know that. And is that's why we're inviting people to to, to actually get get out of this sense of inflammation because we if we lose our voice, animals won't have any voice. And you didn't know that did you for it? But the power that has been given and this is a darkened dystopian reality we have to. I'm not telling people how to think because I don't know the answers either. But what I do know is I need to I'm wanting to help people learn how to not what to think how to think. Because, you know, if we're fighting each other in St. Louis is a conspiracy theorist or it is a virus, can we just get this all sorted out and go back to normal? We are giving away our power and we're doing a huge injustice to animals and certainly for the future of veganism.

Carly Puch

Oh, wow. That connection, I think is I'm not seeing talked about enough mainstream at all, at least in the United States.

Clare Mann

Yeah, absolutely. Well, it is being talked about, but it's being censored. And he tried to look for instance, at 16 frontier doctors who stood in front of the Congress building in America in Washington, and talking about, you know, alternative treatments or treatments that have worked beautifully for the past 60 years. hydroxychloroquine i'm not i'm not and medical person and active thing. I'm not here to say what works and doesn't. You have 16 doctors who were part of 600 doctors who came to a conference, and within an hour or 30 minutes, I think when that virus that when that video went viral, were all censored, all their websites were brought down, and someone who then put them on one of their very robust webinarjam platforms called the high wire.com I think it is with Dell big tree, and he was completely de platformed. Now I say to victims, why would they What are they trying to hide from us? These are medical people and if they're telling wrong information, and we know this Scientifically and clinically, they should all be barred from practicing. Right? But they're not. It's the media and it's social media, the technology companies that are banning them. When do we suddenly have these these making decisions about people that we put through enormous yards to actually maintain their license with that rights responsibilities that go with those rights. So I encourage people to, to, you know, what we're actually doing is, I've come together with a dear colleague of mine who is not gonna do and who is the founder of world vegan day in Melbourne, Australia, one of the biggest festivals that's run. I think it's what one stage it went up to 20,000 people. Oh, wow. He is known and he's very, very humble. When you see him on the webinar, you realize this, he they know him as the beacon maker, because you put him on a board of people with scientists and he influences more people to become vegan because he's knowledge of food and what happens into the body. He's not a doctor. He's actually It was originally a mechanical engineer, which, but when we actually look back one of the biggest influences of diet and health and the plant space was a mechanical engineer. It was pretty good. who influenced the the grandmother? Who? of Mugu, Dr. Michael Greger. He was evil oh my gosh, doctor, and actually it was a lifestyle medicine person who would put him in contact with Dr. Michael Greger, his grandmother and she instead of being in a wheelchair in her 60s and never walking again, went on to live, I believe to her 90s on a whole food plant based diet and Dr. Michael Greger of nutritionfacts.org that's his calling to the world, you know, how not to die and those things. And often what I realized is we're looking for professionals often because it's almost you got to get a tick in the box to say something. Now, I may be a psychologist with that go rights and responsibilities and, and hopefully training and an objectivity in a knowledge base that gets me asked certain questions that evaluate things but you You're psychologists to your everyday psychologists making sense of human behavior. If we ban date that Carly can actually talk about the human condition, and that she's a psychologist, is that about in the same way that you and I can talk about health, we may not be able to get professional advice on that, right. That's not our area of expertise. And we haven't gone through that training and assessment, but what we can do is actually point people in the direction of people who have done that. Right. And so what I like about Mark Donohue is where we're coming together and asking those questions about health, immune systems, what is a virus? What is a vaccine? Who are these doctors? What is censorship? All within the millions of you know, second stage of dystopia. So it's second it's vegan psychologist, calm second stage. And that second is whether to and all the recordings are there. We're going to get guest speakers on there. You know, not to have a position on it, but to to actually say, we're going to give you those links to those sensor videos. Yes. If we Give our power away to bodies that we know have lied to us and tell the world to eat a diet that is or a multibillion dollar pharmaceutical industry, then we are giving away our power. And we animals won't have a say in this by any means to be brave vegans, ask the questions, live in the anxiety, you know, be generous to each other. We're all struggling with this new existential reality. And let's just call it he says, consciously clueless. Let's create something different.

Carly Puch

Well, I think that what you just described made me think of how it's conversations like that, that feel like they will actually unite people on different maybe it's political spectrums, ideological spectrums, whatever it is on different sides. Because I think what at least what's happening in the US is there is this kind of questioning happening, there's this questioning of what is real what is not and if that Be this uniter for people who are vegan or not vegan, or whatever it is, whatever movement you're a part of. I think that's pretty powerful. And that's when people and systems and power get nervous and start censoring, right? Because if people that usually fight and don't agree on things are both saying, Wait, is this real? Is this true? Is this good information? That's pretty scary.

Clare Mann

Absolutely. And, you know, it's this censorship is happening by technology companies, you know, and, and in the media is I've actually I was watching a video the other day again it's I believe it's probably been censored by now. And it was a Spanish doctor was taught in the hospitals aren't full here the we're not overwhelmed with beds. What What are you talking about? Yes, people have got ill they've had a viral flu in this way. However, you know, we're finding with these treatments, they're recovering and they're they're, they're vulnerable people, as they always are with any viral fluid. I'm not advising on that at all. But what was scary is, and it was scary is the person doing the interview was challenging the doctor on medical issues? She said, Where have you been? Can't you see people dying in the street? And he said, I'll tell you where I've been. I've been in the hospital, the front line, where have you been? You've been in the studio. And suddenly there was a voiceover that as because it was part of an interview panel, someone said, I think we're losing this argument, can you draw it back? And that wasn't meant to be said. And so but when did anchorman or anchorwoman start questioning doctors about health issues? Right? They say look, where's your evidence? Where's the scientists? This doctor says this, this one says this. And that's what we're coming up against. And I encourage people to look at things like the highwire.com. Also London real.tv, again, been totally de platformed. And having the much wonderful interviews not only just on health and the issues at the moment, they've been going on for 10 years, this wonderful, robust cloud platform that then had a system speaker on there who questioned the narrative and was suddenly you can't even search for it at the moment you need to know that it's London real.tv private platforms. Now whenever if somebody is inciting hate Of course call you know, I think we have to have some you know for the benefit of us all that's not a good thing.

Carly Puch

Right, right.

Clare Mann

However, this is who's going to play God hear about what should be discussed. And if we feel someone's a bit of a wacko as words have been used in some of these interviews, well let them make a fool of themselves right if you're throwing the might have of you know people that are spending in the case of London real and I'm not here to make a political political thing but just to wake us up really is he was spending $50,000 a month on Facebook advertising to get people to come to these, this platform where he also does business courses and gets people to run their own podcasts and shows and and ventures. He was they literally the platform and well at $50,000 in advertising is huge amount of money. What What was the interview that we didn't want people to see? And I think that's where we've got to say, it's not weather, and there's a lot of things. I don't agree with what he says or speakers. But I do agree and flight to the end of people's right to say it. And if women sense people being censored, we definitely need to know what's being said. Because we're adults, we should be able to decide and evaluate and, and seek out what's going on.

Carly Puch

Well, I think that comes back to something you said is not teaching people what to think. But teaching people how to think that critical thinking skill that I believe gets lost sometimes because we are so indoctrinated in this system of just being fed information and taking it as face value. And moving on because it's easier and that's what we've been taught to do. But just even saying how to ask the questions and why it's important to question things and what I like what you just said is that you don't necessarily agree with everything he's saying and Your point is, but he should be able to say it. And I think that is a lot of what's going on right now is people from both sides are standing up for people being able to say what they want on their side, but not on the other side. And that uniting factor could be like, we're No, we want everyone to be able to speak and then we can make our own decisions.

Clare Mann

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, just and I'll try and do it from my memory, because I was on a webinar yesterday, is, you know, if people are in fear, you know, oh my gosh, is this a deadly virus? We've got this pandemic, where you're locking everyone down. And there was a bit of research done in July 2020. And by a company called kesc, CNC, and it's like a global strategic communications company, okay. And it took about 1000 people across five countries and I've got this in front of me as I'm working from memory here. It was France, UK, America, Germany, and Sweden. Okay, ask two questions. Said number one, how many people do you think have tested positive for Coronavirus? And And the second question was have those people tested globally and enjoy in your country of those and how many have died? Now the first question How many people do you think have been tested positive IE infected? Firstly, the word infected is very frightening to us. It's like someone has an infection, we've got a gangrenous wound. All it means is that a virus has entered the body, they enter the body every day. That's why robust immune systems deal with thing, but the language is frightening. Isn't it all infected? Oh, my goodness, someone's going to be really sick. So true. It was actually 20 to 46 times higher. People believed than actually is okay. And the most frightening one when we really look at the perception of risk when there's a lot of fear around how many people have died off those testings, so they've already got the numbers wrong. People believe that 100 to three Hundred percent more more people had died, then actually had died. From this bearing in mind, we've also got a test that doesn't measure where it's measuring a virus that has never according to what's called conscious postulate, and this is where you need to really look at these doctors to actually scientifically studied this and separate it and say this is what is causing effect. To give some perspective for that it means that in America alone, and they might have adjusted in the last week, people sink out of 300 million that need to 25 point 6 million people have died. In other words, 10% that's 10%, isn't it? Yes. No, if you thought 10% of people were dying one in 10 you would be afraid to leave your home. Actually, at that time, it was done with a level of let two weeks ago. It wasn't 26 million It was 155,000. Okay, so we've got to but if this is what the media is constantly saying they're saying, Oh my gosh. These cases, a case is someone who tested positive, they got sick. They're asymptomatic, necessarily. They might people is wondering the more tests we do, the higher the numbers. That doesn't mean people are getting sick. It doesn't mean they're going to die. And but the effect of lot of these lockdowns, all these lost businesses in Australia alone, we believe in the last six months. And I know this because I'm tapping into the Australian Psychological Society and whatever. We believe that there's suicides resulting from loss of jobs. lockdowns is six times the number is in Australia, of the 547 people that have allegedly died from this specific thing. You know, they've died from certain things, but it's, you see, this is where we've got to ask the questions, because and why isn't the information getting out so we can go Oh, wow. So if it isn't that Hallelujah, if that doesn't mean they're infected. But the media is saying, Oh my gosh, this is really dire. This is what's happening. These Aren't medical people, these aren't professionals concerned about our health? This is a multi billion dollar business that is playing a certain tune. We cannot as vegans allow that to happen. We've got to keep asking people to say what else don't we know? So that we can, you know, we're the ones we've been waiting for. We've got the biggest question about things hidden in plain sight. No, we keep keep asking, we lose our voice. There'll be none for animals.

Carly Puch

Well I think what I hear that you're saying is, it's not that there's not a virus. It's not that there hasn't been effects or haven't been families affected or deaths or any of that. But that information should come from the people on the front lines of, yes, that pandemic and not from the media because the media is obviously not allowing us to receive the information. That's true. And it's just creating a lot of fear. It's fear mongering, and the mental health surrounding it. I live in a really small community and it's hard in a small rural area, to have resources and when small businesses close and all of the things that a lot of people are dealing with, there's a lot of consequences to that fear mongering. And it's, it's hard to know, it's hard to know what questions to ask. Sometimes it's overwhelming.

Clare Mann

Absolutely. That's right. And I always just call it little chunks of consciousness, meet people where they're at. So doubt in their mind and share some of these. And these new things that are happening. I mean, there is a new documentary out that we talked about on one of the webinars is called pandemic. You won't find it I'll have to give you a link to put in the thing, pandemic in Dr. nation, and it's really can making the connection and it's all been censored. You want to find it, and you can find it on London real.tv. It's actually talking about links between the pharmaceutical companies, technology companies, CNC And censorship. And some really, you know, it's an investigative journalist that's done a balance weapon and documentary. Why is this being censored? This is information about these different bodies, and what we're actually receiving. And then you've got strategists in there who have worked with connections with getting a narrative out there in other areas of life. And he's is he's actually interviewed throughout this. And I'd like to watch that because it gets people to have doubt in their mind that oh, well, maybe everything we hear through mainstream, or social media is the probably the worst cut for me. If that's all being censored, and we're only seeing one thing, how can we possibly be informed? So therefore, we must take the time to look outside, but actually, maybe that's not coincidence. Maybe that's a deliberate ploy for whatever reason.

Carly Puch

So what advice do you give to people who are at that point where they're questioning things and they have Have this moment of Okay, I need to ask, what else do I not know? And it's overwhelming. And you kind of just want to bury your head back in the sand because it would be easier what what advice do you have as, as a vegan psychologist.

Clare Mann