The Problem with White Veganism with Zipporah




Zipporah is an important voice in the vegan movement. She writes and shares about injustices for people of color within veganism and within greater systems of the world. In this episode, Zipporah and Carly discuss issues of accessibility when it comes to veganism, eating disorders, intuitive eating, finding a community of people to support you and more!


Please note, this episode has been transcribed by a computer, expect some typos!


Carly Puch

Welcome back to another episode of Consciously Clueless. I'm your host, Carly and I'll be your guide on this journey from consciousness to cluelessness and back around again. Today on the podcast I am joined by Zipporah, whose Instagram bio sums it up best is your local black vegan who calls out in justices and shares food pics. We got into conversations about those injustices within the vegan movement and so much more. We talked about intuitive eating, eating disorders, spreading veganism with intent finding your community, and so many more good things. I can't wait for you to hear. Enjoy.

Carly Puch

So thank you for joining me this morning.

Zipporah

Of course. Thanks for having me.

Carly Puch

Yeah, super excited to chat with you. So the first question I like to ask people This podcast is called consciously clueless. And I chose that name because for me, it meant I was creating this place where I could explore all the things in between being like really conscious and feeling like those moments. You're like, I'm on top of it, I'm killing it. And then when you're like, wow, I feel really clueless. I have no idea what I'm doing in this world. And like everything that comes with that. So that being said, I want to just kind of check in with you and see where do you feel like you're falling on that today? Or right now?

Zipporah

Good question. Ya, I think that's a good way to see things because it's like as much as you will learn different things and like learn new concepts and how things work. There's always so much that there is still to learn. So I think that that's a really good approach of like, consciously clueless, like it's like you're learning but it's also just like, you know that there are so many guys out there But I think that's what's the beauty of of life? Right? As corny as that sounds. And I think that's the attitude that we should have. Because I think that a lot of the times, we acquire knowledge and we're like, yeah, like, I know what there is to know about this topic. And that's so dangerous, because life is constantly changing. People are constantly evolving, and there are always going to be like, you know, different things to learn.

Carly Puch

So, yeah, that's so it's such a perfect segue, because I think what I really appreciate about starting to follow you on social media and starting to read your blog, was that it pushed me in my privilege and my whiteness in veganism to realize like, Yeah, I don't know, all there is to know. And I think that that's a huge thing with being vegan. And being white is people are like, yep, cool. Nailed it.

Zipporah

Yeah, I think it's a very Like, for a lot of white people, it's the is all end all like being vegan is like a full picture. And I think that's that's the danger because I'm like, when I write about like what veganism and like, the issues with that it's not necessarily obviously, the fact of being white and being vegan, right? Like, that's just like doesn't make sense. It's the idea that that is the only form of oppression that you feel comfortable denouncing. And that's unfortunately really common for a lot of white folks because they don't do the work to unlearn all these other systems of oppression, right, and it's easy to relate to animals or to want to kind of like save animals, because they don't have a voice or they can't advocate for themselves. And so it leaves this room open for people to kind of like barge in and then like make all these rules and create all these groups and like, you know, anonymous for the voiceless for instance, and we're Just like you like there's no excuse to not be vegan. And then and it's like I get where you're trying to go if you want the most amount of people to go vegan and very, you feel strongly about that, but you're not realizing that people have a lot of different lived experiences that complicate the experience of going vegan. And so showing some compassion and understanding to those folks could actually go a long way because you might be actually influencing a lot more people that way. Now, I'm not sure what that question was.

Carly Puch

No, no I love it. We're like diving right into the good stuff. Yeah, I was like thinking about this morning as I was reading your blog, because I definitely think that I've noticed, like, my Instagram feed has changed in the last few weeks, and I had to do that. Like that didn't happen naturally. That was because folks were like, I hope your Instagram looks different now. Because of everything that's happening. And it's one of those things that when you have privilege you don't know Notice, that's the whole point. Like that's the beauty of privilege, right is I could just like keep on down the path, but having this change and being pushed, and now I can think of a few. I'm not going to live in shame, right? Because that's not that won't move me forward. But I can definitely think of things I've said in the past of just like why wouldn't you be vegan? Why wouldn't you or not even just veganism, something I feel passionate about in the world? Just like why why don't you see how I see it? Like, how can you not get it? And there's so many things that allow me to step into those faces quite easily and others not to know. And to, to remember that and to have folks tell you that and check you on that is so important. You've written a couple things on your blog specifically about white veganism and that like savior idea. Yeah. You kind of just talked about that a little bit. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

Zipporah

Yeah. So it kind of stemmed from like a tweet that I sent so. And it originated from, like on social media, there are a lot of like black people, not necessarily vegan, that we're discussing the idea of why people are vegan or white people in particular. And when you look at, let's say, Black Lives Matter, like different kinds of movements, you'll see that, for instance, like black people, like we can advocate for ourselves, we can center ourselves within, you know, racial justice, and we're still kind of like marginalized and we still face a lot of forms of oppression and white people will still try to center their feelings in it and try to like kind of like, bring it back to them and like, Oh, I feel this way. And this is kind of like about me when really it's like, no like black people are the ones that are like dealing with the brunt of anti black racism. And so you just like look at that concept of us being able to vocalize or struggling and whatnot. And then you compare it to animal like non human animals because we're also animals. But you compare that to non human animals when you see that they don't have that ability to communicate with us verbally. And so it's quite easy for people who are not used to being checked and not such as white people, right? You kind of like swoop in and speak on their behalf, which is not necessarily as a malicious in and of itself. But when you look at vegans, right, like, if the kind of it's kind of weird to say, but like, if like white people or white vegans were really in it because they cared about ending oppression. And it was really about Being able to create a more just world for these living beings, it would just make sense for that framework to be applied consistently to other animals as well. other humans. Yeah. And I think that that's my problem because I wouldn't have to write about like veganism receivership within veganism. If all vegans were also about denouncing other forms of oppression. And that's, not only is that not true, but a lot of vegans will perpetuate and uphold sayings like ableism, right, and I used to do that as well. When I first started. Even though I had an eating disorder. It was really complicated for me to go vegan, and once I went vegan, I was like, Oh, it's done. Like you don't really have an excuse. Or, you know, like, What's your reason, as you said, right, without realizing like, Oh, no, like people have completely different lived experiences than me. And just because I've reached this point does not mean that someone else reached there. And that Yeah, so like the whole like savior ship for the, the tweet was like if animals could speak many white vegans would not be vegan. Because, you know, like I did, yeah, like if, you know, like, if an animal were to be like, no, like, this is not how I want you to show up or you don't like you can actually if actually Okay, if someone does like, a little bit, at least they're doing something, you know, like, Don't dissuade someone from trying, you know, like, and a lot of, you know, militant vegans, they're like, no, like, you can't do any of it. And it's like, I don't, I don't know that animals would have that same approach. Right? And like, none of us know. But you could only look at other forms of oppression and see how that's being dealt with. And, you know, make your conclusions from there.

Carly Puch

Oh, wow, that was really beautifully articulated. Yeah, yeah. It's it's really important because I didn't take into account how white veganism really was, for quite a while. But you're so right and now being pushed to look at that I, I am noticing, like some of the organizations that are really outspoken against animal cruelty and being really silent on these other issues, especially right now.

Zipporah

Yeah, yeah. And that's the the thing is like, I understand that for certain groups, that's not like your cause, quote, unquote, right. So, like, it makes sense that your feet is not like, night and day, like, everywhere, because like, at the same time, there are so few groups that are denouncing animal exploitation, so I understand it right. But like, you do have an obligation to your fellow human beings to say like, yeah, we're against animal exploitation and we're also with you because we Do not stand for any kind of oppression or any kind of, and that the extending that compassion, extending that kind of understanding to humans is something that a lot of people will be like, no, it's about the animals or that's, you know, like they have their movement and we have ours and it's like, if you think of things in like such categorized way, you're never going to get anywhere, right? Because, you know, people occupy different intersections of being and so that's just like the least productive way to go about, you know, liberation for all people.

Carly Puch

Well, and I think that something that when I became vegan, it was for health first and then I kind of stumbled into like, all the environment, oh animals, but the thing that I think is not talked about as much as those other pieces like the environment is getting a lot of attention with the intersection of animal agriculture right now. Do you think is beautiful? But like workers rights like the people working in these factories, and so like the more you dig in, and not in a corny way, like we are all one because we experienced different things, but it is all connected like we are all one because all of those things like there's a domino effect. They're not these categories that can be like this is an issue. This is an issue. Like I was just reading about, you know, COVID and the people working in those factories that are pigs slaughterhouses, and everything else, it is all connected. Like all these forms of oppression are just layered on top of each other.

Zipporah

Yep, absolutely. And the thing was, like workers rights in like slaughterhouses, or like factory farms. Those are often people who are undocumented need really low wages. The conditions that they have to work in are atrocious, like no bathroom breaks, like there are things that are just like, why would you like Supporting animal agriculture supporting those forms, right? So it's just like, yeah,

Carly Puch

Yeah, definitely. I think it's, it's hard. It's like one of those things you're like, it would be really easy to pretend that wasn't a part of it, too. But it's also really motivating. You know, to be like, Oh, this choice has ripple effects in all these different areas.

Zipporah

Exactly. Yeah.

Carly Puch

And that, that is like something for me to cling to, I think.

Zipporah

Yeah, no, absolutely. Because it's like you don't because once you're I don't know how long you've been vegan. But I've been vegan for like three years or so. And like, you kind of it just becomes habit like you forget about it sometimes. Yeah. And it's good to sometimes just like, Oh, you don't like the world is shit and things. But like, at least there's one thing that I have the ability to do that I'm doing and that I know is like, not causing more harm in all of these different ways, right? So it's like that take maybe click on two, sometimes three.

Carly Puch

Sure, so tell me a little bit about how you became vegan.

Zipporah

Um, I became It was like a very long journey. When I was in high school I watched this video on YouTube called meet your meet. Oh, yeah, so they had like a different segment for every animal so like, there were like a few minutes where they looked at like chicken chickens and what they experienced mentales and whatever. Well not whatever. But yeah, I remember I remember seeing that as being so shocked. I was like, I could never do this again and I was like 14 or something. But I just, you know, lived at home was not convicted in my like, like, I knew it was wrong and like, like when the fee was planted, but I was never I never like it's hard to like difficult to say but I didn't care enough to like really make the change. But it was always on my radar. So I went vegetarian for a few years. Went back to eating meats, and I went to pescatarian and I also had an eating disorder throughout that process. So it was really hard for me to kind of like, a lot of my comfort foods or like, foods that I would binge on were animal based. And so when I was in, like my first year of college or something I told myself okay, veganism is the goal like uni I just like kept researching. I kept like, even when I wasn't began, like, years before, I was just like watching the videos and documentaries, and just like really trying to ground myself in the why. And it sounds really like violence that I needed to see the videos so often and like really, because when I went about my day, like everyone was just still eating animals, it was still like, so I couldn't be like, it wasn't easy for me to make that connection because it's not like I was only privy to me when I was watching those documentaries or when I was like watching the video. Otherwise, like no one was talking about it in my circles at least, like I wasn't really following any vegans. So that's one thing I started to do was like find people online and then slowly went from like being pescetarian to like, cutting out dairy and then eggs. And then in 2017, like spring of 2017 I just like, like, yeah, like, let's go. And I've been vegan for like three years now. So

Carly Puch16:25

I really appreciate you talking on your blog openly too, about having an eating disorder. And like the intersection of that and becoming vegan, would you be willing to talk a little bit more about that experience?

Zipporah

Um, yeah, for sure. So it was just, it just complicated the process because food because, of course, like the food part isn't all there is to veganism, right? Like, there's like the clothes aspect is like what kind of like makeup that use the kind of product right, you know, like, it expands to a lot of things, but the main thing that you Kind of like, indulgent are partaking fairly regularly as food. And when you look at like the atom one citation, like the side that's easier to relate is, in as much as it relates to the food production, right. So like slaughterhouses and factory farms and whatnot. And so yeah, it was just difficult because I, I wasn't able, like, to me food was something that was very it's just like very sensitive like I'm like, I'm not I'm not ready to change this because it caused a lot of anxiety. And when I did try, it would kind of just trigger a lot of like eating like behaviors. And so it just wasn't healthy for me. So I just I took it slowly and you know, took it day by day and didn't shame myself for having Do it slowly. And it's a good thing that I wasn't following all these groups that are super like, there's no excuse, like, you got to give me a name because if I were see if I was seeing those messages, I think that it would have dissuaded me a lot. And even though veganism is not about vegans, right, it's about doing the most that you can for the animals. I think that like, I wasn't, I think I would have been one of those people that was turned off and been like, Oh, well, you know, like, I'm not vegan, because like, you know, not these vegans were mean to me. But like, I didn't feel like I could, like, join into that movement. So yeah, I just followed vegans that like, we're less militant. Like I see like examples, and especially like black vegans and see what they were doing and like, how they advocated for it. And then, when I looked at Black vegans, I was like, Oh, no, there's like, none of this, like militant like, restrictive judgy. Yeah, and that's, that was key for me and I didn't I don't think I realized it until Because I was going over the accounts that I was following, I was like no like girl like all black vegans are using color and I think that that was key for me because I just felt like okay, like I see representation one, but also the way in which you're advocating for veganism is like in a way that like I can I feel comfortable taking my time to do this and like respecting my boundaries and being able to be in this in the long haul. So, yeah.

Carly Puch

Yeah. And you wrote something about spreading veganism with intent, which I think is what you just started to kind of touch on is and that is something not just with veganism, but with anything I'm passionate about that I've definitely had to learn and I'm still learning because I get really excited and I want everyone in my life to follow along and I'm like, Guys, I'm right. I swear this is a good thing to care about. But you know, telling people what to do, doesn't always work.

Zipporah

I completely relate like having that excitement and just because that's what I when I first went vegan, forget about it like, I was, like everyone else like, do you want this documentary? Like what are you doing? Because it's like, it's just a switch, right? Like, it's like, even though veganism was on my radar for years, yeah, I'm committed to it like this, which just goes off and you're like, I need everyone to know. And then you have to remember like how you were before that switch was turned on, and then try to influence from that one. I totally get it.

Carly Puch

Yeah, it's hard. I also had it on my radar. For years and years, my best friend growing up was vegan for so long. And then once the switch flipped, it was just like, you can't flip it. It's like once it happens, it's hard to describe before to people who haven't experienced it, and it sounds a little crazy. But once it happens, there's like, it's hard to go back and you see people especially The health thing I think, was really hard for me to then have people in my life I was just like, but I want you to live to be 1000 years old. And and I don't want you to eat that anymore and I'm worried about you, but it doesn't. It doesn't sound like that when you're telling people to, like, put that burger down.

Zipporah

Exactly. Yeah. And, and like people don't necessarily relate to it because of those switches and off right and you don't know where people are at in their journeys, right. And like, that's something that I talked about a bit and like spreading veganism with intent is like, being able to see where someone's at. When I first went vegan, it was very much just like, everyone needs to know, these. This is what helps me and you're just regurgitating everything that you've probably compiled for years. So it's just like, you don't know where that person is on the like, let's say for me, it took me I would think five years or so it's like To this, so you don't know where someone is, in that five year journey, that's also something that they're on. So one thing that I've been more privy to is just questions that makes sense. I like people who are like, Oh, I want to go vegan, but I don't know where to start. That's not someone that like I'm going to necessarily pouring my energy to, because that signals to me that you just are looking for someone else to do the work or you saw veganism and you think that it's trendy and you want to jump on board? Because if you've done a little bit of research, asking, I don't know where to start, and it's not something that you would say, especially on 2020, you would ask them like, oh, I've tried to cut out my dairy consumption, but I'm struggling with cheese or what's your favorite brand of like milk? Like how, like, what do you put in your coffee? Like, there'll be asking more pointed questions that that signal, okay, you've done something so late, like, continue with you, you know, so I think that that's what I meant, like in terms of like, making sure You're cueing into where someone's at and their journey and advising them accordingly. And also knowing when to be like, hey, like, it doesn't really seem as though maybe you're like, I would just ask, why do you want to go vegan when people ask me like really big questions like, why? And it's usually Oh, well, and you can tell that it's not really founded in anything, which is not anything wrong, right, like, right somewhere. But then it's just like, oh, so these are the documentaries that you can watch. Once you watch those, let me know if you want to stick with it. Or you know, yeah, yeah.

Carly Puch

That's a really good point is listening to cues of where people are at. I really like that idea of like, okay, I just, I'm gonna listen to kind of where you're at and remember my own journey. And I mean, in the beginning, I was as bold as telling people like, well, you just don't get it yet. And, and now, I think of that, and I'm like, Oh, no no no

Zipporah

ya.

Carly Puch

No, no, no, I'm so sorry. Like, because if someone would have said that to me, Well, you just don't understand. I would have been so turned off.

Zipporah

Yeah. Yeah. I think I could remember that too. Yeah. Because it also comes from a place of, it's like that thing that you say before you get in your fields as, like, as a vegan, because it's just so heartbreaking when like, you know, I'm like that. And it's a defense mechanism, right that we do. And so it comes across as though we're super crass and like, well, you don't just don't get it yet. But then you like turn around, and you just feel so defeated. And so like, I wasn't able to, like, advocate for animals, I wasn't able to convince this person. And I think that if we were able to cue into that, like sadness, or that defeat that we feel and let people in on that vulnerability and the most in being like, Oh, well, you don't get it. Yeah, as like an attack. I think people would be better. They'll be like, Oh, wow. Like this person actually really cares about this issue. You are like this. And then they can maybe human easier, right? Because like we're all but no one wants to be vulnerable. And that's just like human breast if you like, when we just, like hurt you before, like, I like get into my field and hurt myself. So no, an

Carly Puch

it's so it's so like humans are silly, right? Like, it's so fascinating how easy it is to forget, like, exactly what would work for me. And then I was like doing the opposite. You know, like I would connect if someone did exactly what you said. But then that's not what I was doing.

Zipporah

Yeah, exactly. Because you're on the other side, right? And it's like you forget, you're just like, oh, you should also be in this with me. And it's like, No, no, like, people are completely different. We have our different lived experiences. Like, we don't necessarily we do a really, we have a really hard job but like putting ourselves in the shoes of other people. And we have to be doing that when we're doing activism. Especially, which is funny because like, we sometimes go and it's like, that's the one moments that you really have, like,

Carly Puch

Yeah, yes, absolutely. So you have some amazing pictures of food on your feed and some fun recipes on your blog. That if anyone's looking for inspiration, they should, they should head over to you. Did you like cooking and enjoy? Kind of like that kind of fun food creativity before going vegan? Or was that something that happened after?

Zipporah

Um, yeah, definitely like before. So I was a kid that like grew up watching like TLC and like cooking shows and all these like different like, shows that were tailored to obviously. Also six or seven. I like watching. Like Rachael Ray. She has this like segment this like 30 minute cooking segment.

Carly Puch

I remember that. I forgot about that. Yes.

Zipporah

Yeah, I would watch this. We like it. What is she making? And I just taught me like, like, obviously also like looking at my parents doing like what they were cooking. But like, I'm from Grenada, so my dad's from Grenada, my mom's from St. Vincent. So okay, um, Caribbean household, and the dishes are usually like, I would like pretty complex. So like, it was on Sundays, it would do like the whole, like, cooking for like, a week. So you have all these different foods. And when they would cook it always seemed like this really long endeavor. Like it was just like, it just took so much time. And so it was weird for me to watch Rachael Ray like make this food and like it took like 30 minutes and I was like, Are you kidding? Me? Like, you don't like my parents take like three hours to make food. But it's also like, you know, the flavors are a lot more layers. And so like, it also comes out and like the the results that you have from either And so, when I was growing up, I was kind of like reconciling both. I'm like, okay, I want to really make like really good food that like my parents. Make, but I'm also not interested in being the kitchen for hours. Like that's just not me. And so from a young age I would I started cooking in a way that was like, multitasking all the time. So it's like I have one thing on the pan. I'm doing dishes here. And I'm doing everything at once because I'm like, I just want to be out of here. It's weird, because I love being in the kitchen. But there's just...

Carly Puch

Not enough to spend the whole night there.

Zipporah

No, absolutely not. And so, I think because I started cooking when I was like, seven or eight. I kind of just, like gotten to the hang of things. So now when I do things, it's kind of just like second nature. And when I was a kid my like, I would have my parents, like, taste my food. And at first they were just like, this is garbage. Like what are you eating? I like but they would give me like small things to make like I'd be like, okay, like you can make like stir fried vegetables like got it like oh, yeah, and then over time, I think kind of got better at it. And it was kind of a curse because they were just like, let me cook for the family. And I was like, Oh tha'ts not what I wanted to do.

Carly Puch

Wait, no, this isn't what I signed up for. Hold on.

Zipporah

So, ya know, definitely from a young age, it was really fun cooking. So it kind of just translated when I went vegan. But yeah, I just had to, like relearn a lot of things because a lot of things that I were making were very like animal based. And so but luckily, like I always cooked with spices and like knowing how different like grains would you know work with each other and stuff. So? Yeah, a long time coming.

Carly Puch

Have you been able to transition some of the traditional Caribbean food that you grew up making your eating into vegan versions?

Zipporah

For sure. Like a lot of the simple ones? Yes. Um, for there are a lot of dishes that I just luckily like I have a lot of like family members, my uncles Who are also cooks are like good in the kitchen. And so like they'll, they'll know how to do a plant based version of it like, Yeah, because a lot of the dishes in the Caribbean are actually not like I mean, like you have like jerk chicken or like, you know, curry go or something like that. But they're very easy to kind of like swap because it's really just all about the flavors and the, the method that you're using. And so you can make like, jerk tofu which is something that I do often you can make, like curried mushroom like if you take like really like big yeah you could do like some mushroom and because usually curry goat will be like go and potatoes with like some onion and like a curry sauce. And so instead of doing the go you would use the the mushrooms to kind of like replace it and then you do the same method for the potatoes and kind of like make a stew out of that it doesn't make the same like you don't have the same chewy texture. But that's definitely like one way that you can have like, flavors. I know that sounds so good. The first thing I thought of was like jackfruit for that like texture. Yeah. What do I use doctrine for and vegan dishes? Like the first curry but more for like roti? You? Yeah, so it's like it's a curry that's less, I would say ready then like okay, curry goat will have like more of a sauce to it and you'll eat it with rice. Whereas like the curry that you make for a roti will be a little like a lot thicker because you don't want it to be. It'll still be saucy, but you don't want it to be like fully running from the roti. So if you did something like that, the meat is tends to be like a little more, like polled. And so like yeah jackfruit would work really well for that actually.

Carly Puch

I definitely need to, like I think just, you know, quarentine, I've been in like a rut of getting the same things from the grocery store. But you said curry and I was like, Yes.

Zipporah

Mm hmm. I haven't had a career in a long time to so like on my radar as well,

Carly Puch

For sure. You posted recently on Instagram about intuitive eating, which is something I have been I talked to another guest a few weeks ago about and something I've been thinking about more and more. Could you talk a little bit more about that?

Zipporah

For sure. So intuitive eating is kind of like mindfulness as it's applied to eating. And it has its roots in like Buddhist traditions and like East Asian cultures. There are two like dieticians, obviously like North American that kind of ran with that and applied it to eating in the principles. They're about like, 10 principles or so. But the whole, I guess, idea is to be able to cue into your hunger, respect your respect your hunger, kind of go away with diet culture, making peace with food, get over food rules, right? Because there are a lot of things that we think of like, Oh, you need to have a plate of like protein vegetables and starches, right? Like that's something that's ingrained in all of us. Maybe not all of us, but most of us in like North America. And it's going away with that and being like, Oh, no, like, if you want to have food, like yesterday, for instance, like, I think I had a smoothie in the morning and I had planned to make pancakes. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna make pancakes tomorrow, have a day off. And then I was like, No, like, I'm craving a smoothie. So I just made a smoothie. And then I didn't eat until like, later, like, I did a spin class. And then I was like, oh, wow, I'm like, really hungry, but I just, I just want a bagel. And so I'm like, yep, you can actually just have a bagel so I just like toasted a bagel and put some butter on it. Whereas before I would be like, Oh, no, like, I need to get my greens I need to get my grains in I, what about my protein? What about this? And it's like, the thing is if you're eating intuitively, like, over time your your body will kind of like be craving the things that it requires if you're eating, especially like Whole Foods. Yeah. Because I think that's the part that like, I'm not sure if that still abides by food rules. But like, if because if you're practicing intuitive eating, but you're eating, like a lot of junk food, I eat junk food, but like not 24 seven, right? It makes it hard to cue into your hunger signals because you're eating a lot of empty calories. And so like your hunger just doesn't, you never feel satiated. And so you're not, in a sense, able to practice intuitive eating. So I think that one thing that's important is to be make sure that you're eating mainly Whole Foods, so that you're better able to like feel your hunger and kind of like listen to what your body means.

Carly Puch

Yeah, I think it's so important, an important part of mindfulness that is not talked about as much. But something I've been thinking about. Again, I usually was really hungry when I woke up in the mornings, and I just haven't been lately. And so like, I made some oatmeal and I was just kind of like, twirling it around with my spoon and not really eating it. I was like, why am I I have no reason to be forcing myself to eat this. I'm not interested. I'm not hungry. I'll save it for later. And it was like a novel idea to me. I was like, Oh, I don't know, half this breakfast.

Zipporah

Crazy. Well, because it's like from the time you're a kid, right? It's just like, breakfast, lunch, dinner, and like you can't leave the table unless you finish your food or like, and when you're a baby or when you're growing like of course there's that concern of like you getting your nutrients in and like, you don't necessarily understand what hunger is and you're not able to cue him. yourself. And so yeah, your parents are going to like force feed you twist, right that. But like, once you get to a point where you can actually understand what hunger is, you can understand your emotions. You can, you know, like you can articulate different things. And yeah, you can actually practice intuitive eating, whereas like, you don't have to eat at certain times. Like, if you're not hungry, like I think that's the, but again, like with having an eating disorder is that you can run into issues there, right? Because it's like, you'll convince yourself that you're not hungry a lot of the time, like, I don't like I've never had really like anorexia, but like with binge eating, you'll kind of go through waves of like, usually it's characterized by just like, periods of time where you're just like, binge eat, you eat a lot of food in one heading. And then you'll kind of like try to restrict yourself and be like, Oh, I'm never eating again. And you'll convince yourself of that for like, hours. Days may be until you're like super hungry. And then you binge again because that's just like how it goes. And so when you're in that period of like convince yourself that you're never going to eat again or like Hyderabad you, you like sometimes you are actually starving. But if you tell yourself Oh no, I'm not hungry or I ate already, then you're confusing. What you're actually feeling was like what your disorder is like telling you to, it's just telling you not to eat so right. That's something that you have to get over before practicing intuitive eating and I think that it's a good practice and it's a journey so it's like you're never going to be like, fully there but it's I think it's about like getting the basis and being able to kind of like work with the different principles.

Carly Puch

When I think even the way you described it is better than the now the limited knowledge I had of it and it's so easy when these like health and wellness trends pop up to just started but not really know why or like the the foundation you should have first so That's a really good point, like, Okay, so my issues around food need to be a little more solid, maybe but you know, like, that's not necessarily a part of the conversation that could be really. And it has been damaging to a lot of people's ideas around food.

Zipporah

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's because a lot of people are using intuitive eating as this like, new trend. If you think of it, as you said, as like mindfulness, it's a, it's a part of mindfulness. It's no longer that's something that you practice day to day, it's something that you constantly like have to check in with yourself and make sure that you're present and that you're there. Whereas like, if you look at other like, actual tries to like, you know, dieting, or like different like the keto diet or like no carbs after this time or blah, blah, blah, they usually have the objective is for you to lose weight. For the most part, and intuitive eating is not about losing weight. It's a about being able to feed yourself in a way that like, honors your body and helps it thrive. And so for some people, that means that you will gain weight, right? Some people that means that you will lose some people will stay stagnant. But it's not about that, right? It's about legs you into what your body actually needs. And I think that's like, that's why I really try to not like, promoted or like, talk about in a trendy way because it's, it's so complicated. I think it's just like a way of seeing food in a way of like, going about life kind of like a little like veganism in the sense that it's like, there's not a specific kind of vegan vegan that you have, right? Like you'd be healthy and you can do this you can do that there are a lot of different ways that you can be vegan, right at the end of the day is about like not exploiting animals. And same thing with intuitive eating is like at the end of the day, it's just about honoring your body and eating to dissatisfaction.

Carly Puch

That's the piece I want to like key in on When you said honoring the body Mm hmm. Because we have so removed food from this idea of nourishment. Yeah. And I think a really damaging way. And I, when I was training to become certified as a health and wellness coach, that was the thing I kept coming back to is how many diets that pop up are so unsustainable. I felt like I had this secret. I was like, oh, people can just just eat whole food plant based. Yeah, like not count things. And of course, there's goals if you have health goals or health issues, like I'm not saying that and for sure, but really the sustainable long term like healthy thing as I was going through this training, I was like, it's literally just eating plants, like.

Zipporah

Yeah, yeah,

Carly Puch

That's how we honor the body.

Zipporah

Yeah, well, because like it's Like unrefined or like, you know, like Whole Foods, right? Like plants as you said, like, they allow you to feel full, like the way that they like, feel your stomach. And the there's so many properties and I'm embarrassed because I did like go certificate and nutrition but like there are certain properties of foods that are like exist in like plants that allow the fiber especially right like it allows your your stomach to actually feel full as opposed to if you're just drinking, I don't know just eating doughnuts such as fat as just oil. And it's fine to eat donuts, like I eat a lot of donuts but only eating that like if your body is not able to it doesn't fill up to the point that it needs to be like, Oh yeah, wow, I'm satiated because oil just doesn't occupy that same space in your stomach. And when you break it down in that way, I think that like it's easy to be like oh yeah, like you just got to eat more. I knew that that shouldn't be the focus. That's hard. Because like, that's just like not the food that gets promoted. And it's not the way that we're taught to think about food. Yeah,

Carly Puch

yeah. That's what I was thinking to is a part of intuitive eating not only when are you hungry, but when are you full? Yeah, that's another thing, too, that I think is really interesting. And I mean, I've done it recently, I'm sure with like, a bowl of popcorn the size of my head, like, all of a sudden, you're done. And you're like, Oh, I was full like 20 minutes ago.

Zipporah

Absolutely. And I like I talked about this a lot, like in the blog post that's on my Patreon. But it's like, knowing when I'm hungry. I'm like, Okay, I got that piece. Yeah, but so so part because I don't like because it's like, comforting. It's like something you do when you're bored. It kind of and those lines get blurred a lot and I think it's fine to sometimes seek out food for comfort. I think it's wise to seek out food for, you know, but it becomes dangerous when you're doing it all the time because you're no longer able to cue into your fullness signals. Right. So, yeah, everything in moderation

Carly Puch

Oh, that's so so, so, so, so true. I really appreciate you talking a little bit more about that because I think it's an important conversation to have alongside talks about like veganism and food and that kind of thing because if veganism has done anything for me, it's increased my mindfulness in like every area of life, you know, definitely, like set me on the path of thinking more critically about stuff in general, and I think intuitive eating is a part of that.

Zipporah